00:00:09: He has abdicated government here by declaring us out of his protection and waging war against us.

00:00:19: Welcome to Life Liberty in the Pursuit Of Happiness, a podcast commemorating the two hundred fifty year anniversary at The Declaration of Independence!

00:00:27: This show is sponsored by the American Centrum in Hamburg Germany And I'm your host Andrew Sola.

00:00:34: We all know that the Revolutionary War began with the battles of Lexington & Concord In April seventeen seventy-five and that the Declaration of Independence proclaimed on the Fourth Of July, seventeen seventy six.

00:00:47: That The United States was an independent country.

00:00:50: at this point in the war it Was still difficult to determine how many Americans were true Patriots?

00:00:58: How Many Were True Loyalists And How Many We're Just Sitting On The Fence.

00:01:03: Rough Estimates and These Are Rough Suggested A third leaned patriot, a third leaned loyalist and the third wanted to stay out of conflict.

00:01:12: But in months after the Fourth Of July real changes on the battlefields started sorting all colonists more decisively.

00:01:24: War has a way making you change your mind or take a stand it forces.

00:01:33: One of the most significant developments in the summer and fall of seventeen seventy-six that helped people pick a side was The capture of New York City by the British Army, And new york became the center Of loyalism In the new united states As loyalists fled there from far and wide to seek protection From patriot militias.

00:01:54: And the continental army.

00:01:56: So our theme today is Loyalism in New York city.

00:02:00: Why did the British Army choose New York City as a Loyalist Fortress?

00:02:04: What do historical documents tell us about loyalists' attitudes and beliefs.

00:02:10: why did colonists chose to become loyalists, how did loyalists react to the Declaration of Independence?

00:02:17: And what happened to loyalists after The Revolution?

00:02:21: Here with me today to help answer some questions is Dr Christopher Mendte.

00:02:26: Welcome Christopher

00:02:28: Thank you for having me.

00:02:30: Dr.

00:02:30: Minty is an early American historian and editor at the Center for Digital Editing, at The University of Virginia where he's managing Editor-and-Project Director of Naval Documents Of The American Revolution.

00:02:46: He previously served as an editor At the Adams Papers editorial project And has been author of Unfriendly to Liberty Loyalist networks and the coming of The American Revolution in New York City, published by Cornell.

00:03:01: In two thousand twenty three.

00:03:03: So the grievance you started off with Christopher.

00:03:07: He has abdicated government here By declaring us out of his protection and waging war against us.

00:03:15: That's for me a curious passage because it neglects Sort of the other side of The Coin, which is he was protecting at least some colonists.

00:03:24: Namely Loyalists right?

00:03:27: Yes so.

00:03:28: throughout the colonies loyalist were present everywhere.

00:03:33: There weren't all of the colonies and they came from all walks of life white loyalists black loyalists indigenous loyalists.

00:03:40: Some are elite many we're not elites.

00:03:43: And the stereotypical view of a loyalist or a Tory as they were often labelled is that there are high-ranking government officials, elite gentry landed people who wanted to protect what they had and not risk losing everything.

00:04:02: In reality, loyalists very similar to those became revolutionaries or patriots.

00:04:10: They came from the same types of backgrounds.

00:04:12: This shared this similar religions, they looked similar or the same and they wanted to remain for various reasons within The British Empire under George III.

00:04:25: in the Declaration of Independence where you have that long list of accusations against George III?

00:04:32: They didn't mention that many people on the colonies want it to remain under George III's protection, and he as well is.

00:04:40: the British army in The Royal Navy went to great lengths especially toward the start of the war.

00:04:45: And towards throughout To keep them to keep within the British Empire.

00:04:52: In your historical research Roughly when do we start seeing a divergence?

00:04:57: in views like you know the colonists are the colonist.

00:05:01: We have the Seven Years War.

00:05:04: at what point does opening rift start, would you say where people start maybe identifying as I'm on the side and this will be called loyalism versus I'm tending towards another side of patriotism and independence.

00:05:23: That's a great question.

00:05:24: many textbooks or histories of American Revolution often begin with The Stamp Act in organized start to.

00:05:38: the march toward independence is ten years before.

00:05:42: Lexington conquered and people often use that as a first step towards separating from Britain, and they highlight people who would become patriots their contributions too.

00:05:55: this impact organization of the sons of liberty.

00:05:58: but i often fail to mention.

00:06:01: many leaders in new york city in the Sons of Liberty would go on to become loyalists.

00:06:07: So you have people like Edward Nickel, Joseph Alacocque.

00:06:11: these were James Delancey... These are leaders among The Sons Of Liberty and New York City And they went onto becoming Loyalists In New York city in seventeen sixty eight and seventeen sixty nine.

00:06:24: there general assembly elections are held.

00:06:28: within this election a popular political group led by James Delancey and known as the Delancee faction, take hold of The Assembly.

00:06:39: Toward the end of seventeen sixty nine opponents to the delancy start to emerge after they discussed a quartering or British troops in that city because New York is the headquarters of the British army so there's a lot of British troops their need somewhere to stay And New York has to adhere to parliamentary law Or risk being essentially closed or shut down by Parliament back home.

00:07:05: Prior to that, prior to those discussions the Delancees had built a viewing chamber in The Assembly so that New Yorkers could literally watch their elected representatives do what they said they were going to do which was advance their interest and protect them, advance economic independence.

00:07:28: basically just look after.

00:07:31: When they ran for election, the said that were going to do some things.

00:07:35: They're building this viewing chamber was allowing New Yorkers make sure are you know... Going To Do That!

00:07:40: They Were Doing

00:07:41: That!!

00:07:42: When they were discussing the quatering of British troops.. They Locked The Doors And Didn't Let Anyone In.

00:07:49: So This Started The Formation Of An Opposition Group Or Faction Led By A Scotsman Called Alexander MacDougall Who Had Been Going To The Assembly He said on a daily basis and after that, after they discussed it and voted in the quarter of British troops he authored an anonymous broadside to The Betrayed Inhabitants Of New York.

00:08:12: And in that broadside he made a series of allegations against the Delances and acting governor called Cadwaladra Colden saying They had formed an alliance and are looking only at advancing their personal interests was acting governor during the Stamp Act crisis of seventeen sixty-five and there were riots in New York, which Colden had quite a decent amount property destroyed.

00:08:40: And he is probably the most hated man in New york at that time.

00:08:44: people still didn't like him.

00:08:45: a few years later.

00:08:47: so by tying the Delancey's to coldon they were sort of painting them with the same brush.

00:08:54: their negative connotations all surrounding coldin where applied for the delances And a manhunt began to try and find the author of this broadside.

00:09:04: They eventually found MacDougall, he went in jail.

00:09:07: they imprisoned him.

00:09:10: through his imprisonment He was able to mobilize huge amount of support for him against The Delances.

00:09:17: So it's around that point.

00:09:19: In seventeen sixty nine up into seventeen seventy were two opposing political groups formed in New York One-The Delances and one is led by Alexander McDougal.

00:09:32: McDougall eventually gets out of prison, he goes on to lead this group in opposition to the DeLancees.

00:09:39: but at that time it's when the lines in The Sander are almost drawn in New York because most of the Delancee supporters would go onto become loyalists during American Revolution.

00:09:49: Most of McDougals' supporters will want to become revolutionaries or patriots.

00:09:54: So This Is A Long Time Before.

00:10:01: So it's pre-existing political divides in New York centred around competing visions of their place within the British Empire at that time.

00:10:12: They don't set them in stone, but they strongly influence people's allegiances during the revolution.

00:10:18: and when seventeen seventy four and seventeen seventy five so come along Delancey supporters are talking about this.

00:10:24: They're talking about their opponents led by McDougal who they call the Blues and that's where the divides emerge.

00:10:31: What do they call them?

00:10:32: The Blues.

00:10:34: The Blues!

00:10:37: Many of McDougall's supporters were Presbyterian, which is how they label them and criticise him from that sense

00:10:44: Interesting Not blue because that's the color of this Scottish flag.

00:10:51: No,

00:10:52: there was a little bit of like scotophobia especially directed toward cold and because called in was from Scotland to but There wasn't too much directed against McDougal which is curious.

00:11:06: When he was in prison, MacDougall appropriated the number forty-five after John Wilkes who authored The Forty-Five.

00:11:13: The issue of the North Britain.

00:11:15: that got him into a lot of trouble back in England and Wilkes was known for his anti Scottish.

00:11:24: I have a number of different questions on that fascinating story That really shows their political divisions or ideological divisions preceding some of these other events leading up to the Declaration of Independence and the split between loyalists and patriots.

00:11:41: First, why was McDougal arrested?

00:11:45: Was there no freedom-of-speech depress at

00:11:48: that time?

00:11:48: He was arrested because they thought it was seditious libel but he was very critical of Coulton and very critical in the Delancees for putting out all of these, what they viewed as awful lies.

00:12:09: And he was released because the trial proved that... What?

00:12:11: He said it's true or did you never make a... He

00:12:13: was released more like a technicality!

00:12:15: Because the printer who published it died and there wasn't really enough to convict him.

00:12:22: so he was releaseed.

00:12:23: So kind got off but he was in prison for awhile.

00:12:27: But through his imprisonment he was able to mobilize huge amount support.

00:12:30: It backfired on their trying And his case would have been that everything I've said is true.

00:12:36: You can't convict me for saying truth

00:12:37: things.".

00:12:38: Right, another question i had was the extent to which these differences are personal because it sounds like there's some personal animosity here.

00:12:51: how much really just about self-interest economic interest and money?

00:12:57: How much of it is loyalism Love, deep held love you have for the British King and British culture in tradition.

00:13:10: And some patriotic sense on that respect

00:13:14: at That time.

00:13:14: I think it had a very little to do with like any views about separating from Britain or anything Like that.

00:13:22: they shared competing visions For their views within The British Empire New York City's role Within It elected representatives should and could do to advance them protect New Yorkers interests.

00:13:39: MacDougall thought that the Delances, especially those who had been elected were working against the needs of ordinary new yorkers And thus they were somehow corrupt and should be essentially removed from office.

00:13:54: other people should replace then The delancies perhaps being a bit more practical because they were in office already, we're working towards trying to secure and protect New Yorkers interests.

00:14:08: And they knew that had to discuss the Quartering Act at that time... ...and prior to doing it-doing that?

00:14:15: They met with one of their supporters who was a man called Isaac Sears.

00:14:21: Isaac Searse would go on become a prominent patriot during The American Revolution But at that time, he was one of the Delancey's most fierce advocates and had helped them get elected in sixty eight and sixty nine.

00:14:35: And Sears had recommended if they were going to do this or move forward with The Quartering Act discussions then tie on another bill too.

00:14:45: it kind like what happens in modern politics today when people are discussing something in Congress than they might attach on something else.

00:14:55: And he recommended attaching on a paper currency bill.

00:15:00: So New York was in the middle of an economic downturn, or maybe you could perhaps call it hangover after The Seven Years' War and the French and Indian war because during that time lots of Royal Navy ships had been at New York's harbor.

00:15:14: Lots of British Army soldiers have been to New York City so they'd all left...or many of them had left.

00:15:21: Because the war has ended.

00:15:24: having more money injected inserted into the economy, local economy would allow New Yorkers to pursue economic independence.

00:15:35: So they will be able stand more solidly on their own two feet.

00:15:39: and so that allows me forward with up in the end kind of backfired because it shut people at the assembly.

00:15:49: I feel like there's a lot is going to be more practical about time And McDougal was more of a, maybe not... I don't want to say an idealist but leaning more toward that.

00:15:58: But at the time there were both wigs.

00:16:03: There are no real Tories like capital T Tories in New York City or across The Colonies.

00:16:09: At That Time It Was Just They Were At Different Places On Like A Political Spectrum.

00:16:15: So You Could Say That The Delances Are Perhaps More Moderate Or Maybe An Establishment Wig and their equivalents in Britain would be someone like the Marcus of Rockingham who repealed The Stamp Act, but passed the Declaretory Act or Edmund Burke at that time.

00:16:34: And for McDougal his equivalence used more of a radical wig.

00:16:39: so Pitt the Elder, there are other Chatham Someone Like Him with Radical Wig Isaac Barry as well Or even someone like John Wilkes as well.

00:16:50: So they were more radical, so it's different places on a political spectrum where there was clashing at that time and the colonies in New York City sort of came towards seventeen seventy-three, seventeen seventy four, seventeen eighty five.

00:17:06: their positions became more entrenched whereas people from New York started like the Delancees started to look toward Parliament or looked towards people, like Edmund Burke and Rockingham for support.

00:17:18: And to address their grievances, MacDougall and his supporters starting to look at other colonies they start looking toward people like Sam Adams up in Massachusetts.

00:17:28: when John Adams was in the city, Macdougall kind of latched himself onto him and showed them around the whole City to build intercolonial support.

00:17:36: They found people who were like-minded objectives together.

00:17:42: Yeah, that's really interesting and it made me think of what you were saying about people who are in the Sons Of Liberty eventually sort of breaking towards loyalism.

00:17:53: so can-can you just kind of explain how that process might have taken place?

00:17:58: It's not a generality as we can draw from it... So

00:18:00: The Sons of Liberty formed generally in seventeen sixty five As a result of the Stamp Act.

00:18:06: they were formed all over the colonies.

00:18:08: New York City was no exception And the traditional narrative is that the Sons of Liberty were kind of a precursor to patriotism during American Revolution.

00:18:20: In reality, in New York some leaders from The Sons Of Liberty also known as the liberty boys would go on and become loyalists... ...and the Delancees in New york where leaders are the sons of liberty.

00:18:34: So in seventeen sixty five everybody was in New York with the exception of someone like Cadwell or Colden was against the Stamp Act.

00:18:42: It wasn't something that was supported by people who'd go on to become loyalists, they wanted it repealed.

00:18:50: They pushed for its repeal and when it was these people would come together in seventeen sixty-five Would Come Together Again In seventeen sixty eight And seventeen sixty nine.

00:19:01: Their political ties brought them together Broadened into personal ties.

00:19:07: People started investing in land together.

00:19:10: They started investing and other commercial ventures, people's family networks overlap because they married each others' families members And their opposition to parliament trying to reorient the British Empire Their attempted re-orientation of the British empire.

00:19:28: People who became loyalists opposed that as well.

00:19:31: They didn't support The Tea Act or The Coercive Acts.

00:19:36: They wanted them repealed too.

00:19:39: Just like people who became patriots, but the way that they want to change to happen The way that we wanted things to move forward Became different to those who become Patriots.

00:19:51: Patriot's event started to look toward what the delancies viewed as illegal or extra legal committees and Congresses for redress.

00:20:01: so they started to Look towards eventually the Continental Congress Whereas people who became loyalist the Delancees they still supported The New York General Assembly.

00:20:12: They're petitioning to Parliament and to George III because that was the legal way To do it.

00:20:18: these were their elected representatives.

00:20:22: this is how we should Do It?

00:20:23: Because if We go about at This other Way Then People in Parliament And George III, they're not going to be too happy About That because they haven't sanctioned us.

00:20:34: this Is a a rebellion.

00:20:36: So that's not the way we're going to go about it, but through tried and tested routes used before.

00:20:44: It worked with the Stamp Act then the Townsend duties as well.

00:20:48: so this is how you should do it.

00:20:51: Colonies had an agent in Parliament to advocate for their interests.

00:20:56: New York's agent was Edmund Burke who advocated his appointment de facto leader of the Delancey faction and family.

00:21:08: He corresponds with Burke, he corresponds to The Rockingham.

00:21:12: Not only does he talk about politics at The Rockningham but also they share a deep love for horse racing In seventeen sixty-five.

00:21:19: so not long after the Stamp Act in November should have come into effect in November...he writes To The Rockngham and suggests setting up an American Parliament because if you don't listen to what the people in The Colonies are saying, they're going to exhaust you.

00:21:35: That the colonies should operate independently for the most part but rely on Parliament and British Empire more generally or broadly For security.

00:21:44: so protection things like the Royal Navy and the British Army.

00:21:48: Going forward To seventeen seventy five.

00:21:51: Delancey still believes In this And he's still believes in New York's role within the empire.

00:21:58: But He understands a situation that therein.

00:22:01: So he decides to travel across England, essentially petition in person.

00:22:07: He goes on May of seventeen seventy-five.

00:22:10: The timing is not great because by the time he gets over things have worsened and ends up never returning.

00:22:18: but his initial goal was to advance New York Assembly's view that the course should be repealed.

00:22:28: Legislatures across the colonies should be able to do.

00:22:31: he's obviously just focusing on New York but things get ahead of him and Things happen quicker than that.

00:22:37: You can control these going across there The Atlantic a tall ship takes a long time

00:22:42: And right after Right, after the battles of Lexington in kind.

00:22:46: is that what was that would precipitates his departure?

00:22:49: No no it really the continental Congresses that the motivate this sort move because they see what's happening.

00:22:59: They know that momentum is picking up, but the New York Assembly does not endorse The First Continental Congress.

00:23:06: it doesn't like want to appoint representatives To Second Continental Congres because the General Assembly Is the legal legislature in the colonies.

00:23:17: and thats how... ...they should move forward with seeking redress.

00:23:22: And he just thinks that living in Jalasses more broadly think that going in person could be more effective.

00:23:27: And you'd think it would because like Benjamin Franklin had a lot of success when he was in London, Don't say doesn't enjoy the same success.

00:23:36: Interesting.

00:23:37: so let's move this story now from Lexington and Concord to The Declaration Of Independence focusing on New York.

00:23:46: So the British Army is stationed In New York City which Is A Good Reason To Be Loyalist At The Time.

00:23:54: But the focus and the sense is that most of radicalism in Massachusetts, specifically Boston.

00:24:05: So how are people in New York?

00:24:07: The Delancees or maybe even McDougal... How they thinking about what's going on in Boston and Massachusetts from Lexington & Concord till the fourth of July, seventeen seventy six.

00:24:24: So what happens for Delancey supporters?

00:24:28: At that time, people who are patriots or revolutionaries take control of Manhattan.

00:24:34: They can take political control over the city.

00:24:37: The General Assembly is inert It has very little political power The Royal Governor eventually takes shelter on a ship in the harbor and People like MacDougall and his supporters are in charge.

00:24:53: There is a mass exodus from the city where the population falls and supporters of The Delances are among that group who leave.

00:25:03: So there's, A prominent Delancy supporter called Frederick Rhinelander.

00:25:08: Rhinelander had been a long time supporter Of The Delancies And he and many his friends and colleagues Leave the City and go over to New Jersey in Bergen County the English neighborhood and they go there, settle their and Rhinelander is mentioned in a letter to George Washington as dangerous person.

00:25:34: He's a Tory.

00:25:35: he's not with us so we have keep an eye on him and his friend Benjamin Huggett.

00:25:39: Huggitt also a Delancey supporter.

00:25:42: They're just trying kind of stay away from MacDougall and his supporters because back Ensure compliance, like you're with us.

00:25:55: So You have to fall in line and that's what they do.

00:25:59: They start threatening people if there were don't want to sign the continental association.

00:26:03: If they don't one two support their methods or other political views so People leave.

00:26:09: MacDougall has had a long time sympathy and support for the people in Boston.

00:26:15: In seventeen seventy-four he was Isaac Sears and John Lam.

00:26:19: if you remember Sears was a supporter of the Delancees in the late seventeen sixties and so is John Lam.

00:26:26: they abandoned the delancies in support of MacDougall.

00:26:29: And they start corresponding with Adam Samuel Adams in Boston, through their correspondences when suggestion about continental congress brought up to form an intercolonial relationship.

00:26:46: mcdougall who i think is probably one of the most understudied and underappreciated revolutionaries during this period.

00:26:54: It's a smart political actor.

00:26:57: he recognizes the opportunity and importance of aligning with people in boston going forward.

00:27:05: the british army and the parliament were broadly recognized, the strategic significance of New York City.

00:27:12: Not only is one of the largest cities in The Colonies has arguably the best harbor In The Colonys with the Hudson River.

00:27:21: And if they were able to take the city They would essentially split the colonies into because there'd be able To Isolate the people in Massachusetts from.

00:27:34: many people are below New York City, so especially from the south.

00:27:38: And they would be able to access going up the Hudson River lots of ways to get into other colonies there and make sure everything is okay.

00:27:46: but by cutting off Massachusetts and having control over New York's very large harbor it will give them an opportunity to quell stop quash The Rebellion quickly.

00:28:04: So New York City is primarily a strategic point of interest.

00:28:10: They didn't choose New York city because there was substantial loyalism there already, as you said many of the loyalists hadn't gone to New Jersey so it was like strategically more important.

00:28:22: they figured maybe they could find a little bit of support.

00:28:25: but if McDougall and his band are kind of in control Manhattan then you know, that paints a little bit of a different picture.

00:28:33: Yeah New York City has often been described as like the hotbed of loyalism and there are more loyalists in New York than anywhere else And they will look toward sources Like the Loyalist Claims Commission.

00:28:50: The claims commission was away for exiled loyalists to seek compensation after and there were more claimants from New York than anywhere else.

00:29:01: I don't buy that.

00:29:02: because of the political opposition of New Yorkers to Parliament's reorientation of The British Empire before the war, after the British take control of the city loyals flocked their.

00:29:15: Because it becomes a safe place for them To be offers them like protection And After the War There are lots Of people in new york who Are having to leave?

00:29:26: more New York claimants than anywhere else.

00:29:29: There are also some prominent new york loyalists who people in parliament and across britain know, they play an outsize role in the development of loyalism in the city.

00:29:44: i'm thinking about people like james delancey whose left ,people like myos cooper was president of kings college which is now columbia.

00:29:54: he also fled to England eventually settles in Edinburgh and Scotland but people know him as well, he leaves.

00:30:02: And then you have people who stay in the colonies like Charles Ingalls Who ends up writing a number of loyalist documents To mobilise support.

00:30:11: He corresponds heavily with Miles Cooper during The War.

00:30:15: Then other New York loyalists like Samuel Seabury Frederick Phillips were very prominent kind of play an outsized role within some historians views about the development of loyalism in New York.

00:30:29: So by the end of December, seventeen seventy six new york city is under british control right.

00:30:38: so at that point word starts spreading that if you're a loyalist feeling under threat come to new yorke.

00:30:43: this will.

00:30:44: this is now your safe haven.

00:30:46: yeah it's all.

00:30:47: one of the sources i've used heavily throughout my time researching loyals in New York are oaths of allegiance.

00:30:54: And the oath of allegiance is tendered to new yorkers and manhattan, in brooklyn statten island long island.

00:31:01: The oath of Allegiance for Manhattan In particular presented some challenges when i was working on it because When I was transcribing this list that has thousands of names?

00:31:11: It has their occupations and I wanted To find out as much information about these people As possible.

00:31:18: who they how old were They what religion were they, what occupation did they have?

00:31:22: They had occupations there.

00:31:24: I think the best one was a rum taster that i was able to find.

00:31:27: it sounds like a fun job or a chocolate maker.

00:31:30: so i've researched these people and you know i've been researching this city for awhile.

00:31:34: so there's lots of names that i recognized but there are also lots of things that i didn't recognize.

00:31:40: And You Know...You Have The John Smiths William Smiths That Are Very Difficult To Identify But There Were Some Names Where I Was Able To Do Research.

00:31:49: I was fairly sure it's people from other colonies.

00:31:52: And, its difficult to prove that with a high degree of certainty because unless you have the document or documents and say... ...I'm going to New York City because X Y & Z is hard to verify but i had strong suspicions that people from Virginia From Maryland ,from other colonies in the south Or other colonies on the middle Atlantic Had come into this city seeking protection Because they were loyalists.

00:32:19: That's where they felt that they should be because they couldn't be in somewhere, Virginia or there could Be somewhere in Pennsylvania or wherever?

00:32:27: because They're a lot of us are they reviewed as loyalist and being in the city offered them safety.

00:32:33: we can protect their family our families And that was just the best place for them to be.

00:32:40: In many of the people in New York City too Of course The Radical Patriots would have left or expelled But there still has to be a significant percentage of the population that is sitting on the fence, still.

00:32:52: And just as like while I live in New York City and I work here so i'm going stay here.

00:32:57: Yeah!

00:33:00: The number of people who...I don't want it to say flip-flopped because thats a big glib but People whoever was there at this time.

00:33:10: That's where they were allegedly present not only across the colonies.

00:33:17: So you have for example, to go back to the Oath of Allegiance.

00:33:20: The Oath Of Allegiance on Long Island was also occupied at this time.

00:33:25: people who were members of the culprits spiring like some sell a strong or are they members of their whole family?

00:33:33: They took the oath of allegiance as well.

00:33:35: these people weren't loyalists and might've had other reasons remaining because they wanted perhaps retain that cover.

00:33:44: But there are people who signed the Continental Association, a document that could be used to identify people as patriots.

00:33:51: Who also took The Oath of Allegiance – A Document That Could Be Used To Identify People As Loyalists Because they just wanted to carry on their everyday lives.

00:33:59: They Just Wanted To Survive.

00:34:01: And I Would Say Those People Not Just In New York Or The City or All Long Island.

00:34:07: Those People Outnumber The Numbers Of People Who Were Patriots AND The People Who Are Loyalist because they just wanted to live their everyday lives.

00:34:16: And for some, having the British Army there was a commercial opportunity cause they could sell like big large professional army turns up on your doorstep or it turns out in your town and you might sell some supplies and provisions.

00:34:32: while these people are gonna need those supplies and they're going to need those provisions then you can be more than happy to provide.

00:34:38: There's really good example of Manhattan particular with a silversmith and the silversmith prior to the british occupation is making swords that you know championed the american cause, and they sort of have the ornament at the top.

00:34:55: And they're very proud to be american pro-american anti-british.

00:34:59: when their british come he's printing like long live george the third on his sword so he just completely flips!

00:35:07: He recognizes commercial opportunity there but also wants.

00:35:12: There's one strand of history That says actually the presence of the British army in New York City over the course of months The occupation of new york city if you will Actually wasn't everything that the loyalists and people who were sitting on the fence had hoped for.

00:35:32: But as it turned out, the British Army being there this being a loyalist fortress Wasn't what they'd bargained.

00:35:38: What do you make?

00:35:39: That's

00:35:41: completely right.

00:35:43: They declared martial law in the city and started to limit people opportunities to do what they wanted, And...they didn't return this into their way.

00:35:51: it had been prior to conflict.

00:35:54: So a really good book by Ruma Chopra called Unnatural Rebellion gets into that in real detail about how loyalists became frustrated with what was happening.

00:36:04: And the British had other priorities.

00:36:13: They were looking to quash a large, what was becoming worldwide imperial civil war and this is just one component of it.

00:36:23: they wanted focus on that.

00:36:26: so loyalists kind of band together trying offer support for their friends or other loyalist in the city but the british army's presence doesn't give them what they hoped or anticipated.

00:36:41: Interesting.

00:36:42: Maybe one final question about the loyalty oaths, as I've been thinking this over a course of couple months now... Whenever i think of the Loyalty Oaths, always an intelligence failure.

00:36:56: The Loyality Oath turns into evidence that can be sent back to decision makers in London and it can prove someone sitting there these pockets of loyalism And here we have some loyalty oaths to prove it.

00:37:12: So all we have do is just maintain course

00:37:16: and

00:37:17: the rebels will be stamped out.

00:37:19: That's not what happened, right?

00:37:23: What was your sense of the loyalty oath as they were received in London by generals even?

00:37:29: Do you think there are misinterpreting them?

00:37:32: In New York The Royal Governor at that time Was a guy called William Tryon And Trion had previously been governor of North Carolina and he became Governor of New York in the early seventeen seventies.

00:37:46: He replaced Lord Dunmore, Dunmore who became Virginia's Governor.

00:37:53: And Dunmore didn't want to leave – he was desperate to stay in New York.

00:37:56: there are a lot correspondence from him basically refusing to leave.

00:38:01: eventually he does…and Trion becomes Governor When The War Starts like try and goes back to England a couple of times for health reasons, but when the war starts properly in military conflict has started.

00:38:17: he desperately wants an appointment.

00:38:22: Part of me feels that at when he had take his government aboard ship into harbour New York was embarrassed because it didn't really reflect well on his gubernatorial abilities.

00:38:34: these loyalty oaths is present I think are an attempt by him, like you say to show people in Parliament look how many loyalists there are.

00:38:46: Look at this beautifully created document with thousands of names that either organized by town on Long Island and they have their ages and occupations or Manhattan.

00:38:57: it has all the names... The calligraphy is gorgeous!

00:39:01: It's got all its occupation and alphabetical concept.

00:39:05: Look how many loyalists there are here and look at.

00:39:09: How good a job I'm doing Organizing these loyalist.

00:39:12: so he has them all sent over to George Dermain He's kind of secretary-of-state for the colonies as an attempt to prove or show New York is low.

00:39:24: What's happening in other colonies?

00:39:27: Not my problem, not the governor they're i'm governor new york.

00:39:29: look how many loyals There are.

00:39:32: That's part of the reason why people start to look toward New York, and they're like okay well we'll go through New York.

00:39:37: There could be a lot of support here maybe militarily in lawyerless provincial regiments And there are lots of new york based lawless Provincial Regiments and In terms of that real impact.

00:39:49: but in Britain I think is comparatively minimal because They're not just thinking about New York their thinking all over the colonies together and trying does get his military appointment.

00:40:00: But I don't think it has the impact that he would have hoped.

00:40:05: But for historians, these sources are fantastic because not only do they offer long lists of people who you can explore individually and collectively some of them offer like biographical information.

00:40:18: but you can see...you can see that loyalists were NOT all elites!

00:40:23: There were farmers there were shipwrights there were silversmiths goldsmiths blacksmiths.

00:40:31: They had a tailors and the rum taster.

00:40:34: Almost any occupation that you could think of in The Colonies were represented on these documents, they're not straightforward either.

00:40:41: You can look at this document as lists of loyalists.

00:40:44: All those people who signed these documents could be identified as a loyalist But by doing individual research like the members of the Culver's Biring... ...you see it quite quickly That they're.

00:40:57: these are complex documents that you have to handle carefully because if you take them at face value, You overlook the complexities of not only loyalism but allegiance and political identity more broadly.

00:41:12: And that's something I've been grappling with a lot over the past several years Because when i first looked at these documents When I was trying to identify as many loyalists in New York is possible.

00:41:23: I thought this is the gold mine.

00:41:25: This is the best sources I could ever find.

00:41:28: Let me find more oats, but the deeper that you dig into them You see there are intricate and you have to be able to navigate people's individual decisions And try to track it.

00:41:40: It won't always possible for you to find sources to tie things together or shake hands But when i saw people from The Culper Spiron Or people who signed the continental association took the Oath of Allegiance, or you'll see someone like this son-of a very prominent New York Patriot take The Oath Of Allegiance in Manhattan.

00:42:02: It's probably just because he was there at that time and I don't want to be put on the Jersey prison ship in New York Harbor.

00:42:10: no way!

00:42:11: No Surrey?

00:42:12: I'll sign this document And...that is what makes them so fascinating for me as well.

00:42:17: it's their complexity

00:42:20: And just that.

00:42:21: maybe the most famous example of The Switching Of Sides, but this was people argue.

00:42:27: But Benedict Arnold who fought on the Continental Army side at the start and then became a loyalist At the end of the war

00:42:34: oh yeah.

00:42:35: So let's talk about the end-of-the-war now in what's happening In New York City with the Loyalists.

00:42:42: so What's it like to be?

00:42:44: A loyalist a true loyalist not one Who Just signed the oath for fun War comes to the end.

00:42:51: What's it like being a loyalist in New York City?

00:42:53: How desperate are we

00:42:55: if we're in seventeen eighty three toward the end?

00:42:59: Treaty of Paris has been signed and The British are getting ready to leave.

00:43:06: they're evacuating this city now.

00:43:08: If you're a loyalists really, you have two options.

00:43:12: The first option is to leave.

00:43:15: Leave with the British and thousands of people did this.

00:43:18: Historians estimate that maybe up to sixty thousand-ish loyalists left the colonies total.

00:43:27: Many of them went to what is now The Maritime, The Maritimes in Canada set out New Brunswick.

00:43:33: many New Yorkers did this like George Duncan Ludlow prominent New Yorker went to New Brunswick.

00:43:41: The Purdy family from Westchester went to new Brunswick.

00:43:44: Underhills also went... Up To Canada.

00:43:48: Some went to Nova Scotia.

00:43:50: Others went over to England, settled in London and many loyalists stayed nearby.

00:43:58: They stayed near each other because if you're abandoning your life it might make things easier If you are around people that you know.

00:44:06: There's a lot of movement there.

00:44:08: Miles Cooper the prominent loyalist who is president at King's College settles in Edinburgh.

00:44:13: Other loyalists moved to Caribbean.

00:44:16: many black loyalists moved to Africa.

00:44:19: The other option is the stay, at least it first.

00:44:24: just see what happens.

00:44:26: and thousands of loyalist do this too.

00:44:28: And someone like Frederick Rhinelander who signed every Loyalist document that I've looked up.

00:44:36: he stayed!

00:44:37: The late family so William Late Edward Late also signed every loyalist document i have seen.

00:44:44: they also state So they kind of say, okay we'll take that risk and will stay.

00:44:50: And see if we can acclimate or adjust to life in these United States.

00:44:57: These independent united states.

00:45:00: Many of them acclimated They stayed and their loyalism was looked over or eventually forgotten.

00:45:08: For someone like Rhinelander he went on become one the most prominent New Yorkers.

00:45:13: He was ended up socialising with the Aster family, like THE Aster Family.

00:45:20: And when he dies in their early eighteen hundreds and death notices or obituaries are published on The Press there's no mention of his loyalism!

00:45:29: He is a good New Yorker who did alot for this city commercially helped advance it... ...and his Loyalism Was Forgotten.

00:45:37: Now some people in New York Helped with that.

00:45:40: someone like alexander mcdougal pushed par and not Alexander Hamilton And we took a dive at the point.

00:45:48: but Hamilton push hard for loyalists.

00:45:50: Not to be persecuted because why?

00:45:54: Many of New York loyalist had their land confiscated, and it was eventually sold off.

00:45:59: so something like James Delancey.

00:46:01: He owned a lot of property on what is now the Lower East Side.

00:46:04: his land was all confiscated.

00:46:05: So him trying to move back, these United States would have been difficult.

00:46:10: Rhinelander didn't have that so he was able to acclimate easier than someone like Delancey could ever be able to.

00:46:18: Was Delanceys property confiscated as punishment?

00:46:22: And Rhinelander is not because he chose to stay and manage this?

00:46:27: Delance's was confiscated earlier during the conflict Because they identified and targeted him a traitor.

00:46:35: So they confiscated his land and he wasn't the only one.

00:46:39: there are other prominent loyalists who had their lands confiscate it.

00:46:42: And eventually, I was sold off but Ryan Lander wasn't prominent enough or didn't have enough land to be in this city anyway too be confiscated.

00:46:53: what other types of retribution might a loyalist New York City expect if any?

00:46:59: I mean Rynlander seems to be an example.

00:47:01: someone got off Scott free we might say.

00:47:05: Was there other types of retribution or vengeance?

00:47:09: Or no, not really

00:47:11: Not to any like great extent that I've seen.

00:47:14: There might have been some political isolation or social isolation But i think after many years of war people were just looking to move forward and these loyalists who remained.

00:47:26: we're not looking to be troublemakers And they are looking to just move forward.

00:47:31: but that is an aspect Sort of the history of loyalism in New York City during the earlier public.

00:47:39: that really does need more research done.

00:47:42: Rhinelander, I think is a bit of an outlier but That research was something that certainly needs to be pursued by other historians and there are some work has been done on South Carolina historian Rebecca Brannon who's done some wonderful work about how loyalists reintegrated their.

00:48:03: That's something that I would love to know more about, is like the extent to which loyalists were successfully able reintegrate into everyday life in Manhattan.

00:48:12: Because there are examples of other sons-of-loyalists or other loyalist holding political office in New York and even one of Cadwaladr Koldin's descendants went on hold off.

00:48:25: he became mayor at New York City.

00:48:27: People forget!

00:48:29: Even with his last name?

00:48:30: He was elected But it's something that I would love to do more research on.

00:48:34: Dr.

00:48:35: Minty, thank you so much for outlining the complicated history of loyalism in New York City.

00:48:41: It has been really interesting but we've come to end today and i ask all my guests What is your main takeaway from this anniversary of the Declaration of Independence?

00:48:56: That was such a good question In talking with based in Germany.

00:49:02: And then talking to friends and colleagues, based in Britain... ...and France and Spain might mean take away about two hundred fifty years of American independence.

00:49:13: is that it was truly a global war?

00:49:16: This was the Global Imperial Civil War That stretched across almost entire world and touched not just thousands or hundreds of thousands but probably millions people's lives.

00:49:30: And now where we are, historians are really grappling with that.

00:49:35: The scale and scope of the war... ...and it's just awesome to see people researching global dimensions about how something like this happens off the coast around Gibraltar affects what is happening in New York City or Williamsburg Virginia.

00:49:56: It shows the extent this conflict affected the development of geopolitical relations for hundreds.

00:50:05: The American Centrum is a nonpartisan and not-for-profit institution dedicated to strengthening

00:51:05: the transatlantic relationship.

00:51:29: Thanks for listening.